Radical Continuity

First of all, I enjoyed J.R. Daniel Kirk’s essay very much. In particular, I strongly agree with the two features he describes about the “best ending” to the Christian story. I think any vision of universal reconciliation is going to have to incorporate these two features.

For example, I very much agree with Kirk’s point that the best ending to the Christian story has to involve continuity between this life and the next, that “what we do in life echoes in eternity.” I think that is exactly right. In fact, this is one of the reasons I eventually came to adopt a universalist position. As Kirk notes, many “traditional” soteriological systems introduce a radical discontinuity into the story – mainly because it’s always been a bit hard to get justification (a binary status) and sanctification (a continuous process) to fit together nicely. Traditional soteriological positions tend to lean toward the binary status inherent in notions of justification while universalist views will lean more heavily on the continuous process of sanctification. By emphasizing the process over the binary status universalist soteriologies keep a tight connection between our moral biographies in this life and the next. Thus, there will be a radical continuity between where you are in this life and where you find yourself in the next. And for many this means finding yourself in hell, to be “salted by fire” to use Jesus’s words.

Regarding Kirk’s second point, I also agree with his criticism of those espousing universalism who are placing too much weight on free will. I heartily concur.

I grew up in an Arminian tradition. I grew up believing that God’s Sovereign will was to save every human who had ever lived. To this day, that belief is the bedrock of my soteriology. Thus, I grew up rejecting the Reformed doctrines of election. My tradition taught me that if you ended up in hell it wasn’t because God wanted, elected or predestined for you to be there. No, you got yourself into that mess of your own free will.

But as the years passed my confidence in free will eroded. I worried about moral luck and social location. More, my training in psychology exposed me to neuroscience, behavioral genetics, cognitive science, developmental psychology, and behavioral analysis. I eventually concluded that humans were not radically free.

So a key part of my Arminian soteriology, a high view of human agency, had collapsed. But I still believed that it was God’s sovereign will to save every soul. How to make all this fit together? Well, by coming to see the power of a Reformed doctrine, a high view of God’s Sovereignty. That, as Rob Bell recently phrased it, “God gets what God wants.” Universalism, thus, is simply the fusion of the best within the Arminian and Reformed soteriological traditions (an observation I owe to the work of Thomas Talbott). Returning to Kirk’s observations, it was the untenable nature of my Arminian free-will soteriology that led me, in a rapprochement with Reformed theology, to my current universalist position.

Does this then mean that God is going to “force” people into heaven? Not any more than God “forcing” the elect in Reformed thinking.

That said, we come full circle as I reject visions of “election” and “regeneration” that introduce a radical discontinuity into our biographies with God. Rather, election, as found in the Old Testament, is about God’s covenant faithfulness. Election is the claim that “love never fails,” that “love is stronger than death,” and that God’s final word to Creation is the “Yes” of Jesus Christ.

Dr. Richard Beck

Dr. Richard Beck

is Professor and Department Chair of Psychology at Abilene Christian University. Richard is married to Jana and they have two sons, Brenden and Aidan. The Beck family goes to the Highland Church of Christ where Richard co-teaches the Sojourners adult bible class. The Becks also have a dog, Bandit, who keeps Richard company in the morning as he works away on his blog Experimental Theology. Richard just published is first book entitled Unclean.
This entry was posted in Bible, Theology and tagged , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.
  • Jim Scott

    “Election is the claim that “love never fails,” that “love is stronger than death,” and that God’s final word to Creation is the “Yes” of Jesus Christ.”

    Beautiful.

  • David

    I continue to admire your outstanding ability to organize your thoughts so eloquently.

    You stated that: “it’s always been a bit hard to get justification (a binary status) and sanctification (a continuous process) to fit together nicely.”

    How about the Trinity; can you fit that together nicely? Does our difficulty with that Scriptural teaching have anything to do with its truth or falsity?

    That various ‘traditions of men’ could unduly stress one or the other of these two teachings of Scripture is not surprising nor determinative. But, how does that error of man bear on the truth (and of course there is only one Truth)? Could you provide a few words on what it is that prevents these two teachings from fitting together nicely other than possibly personal preference?

    Oh, and one more. Does the ‘yes’ of Jesus Christ include “depart from me for I never knew you?”

  • Richard

    Doug’s video response is cracking me up.

    • Anonymous

      Glad you find the humor there. He pretty much cracks us up all the time, but humor is so subjective…

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Douglas-Hagler/848645164 Douglas Hagler

      Thank you – when I go Foolish, I run the risk of insulting the contributor(s) and/or missing an opportunity to say something that sounds smart on the Internet – which is really what this is all about.

      • Richard

        No worries. Theology should be fun and joyful. More, you are actually making (or enacting) an argument universalists need to addess.

        • http://www.facebook.com/people/Douglas-Hagler/848645164 Douglas Hagler

          I’m really glad that came through the goofiness :) (and if theology was not fun, on some level, I would not do it)

  • http://twitter.com/jrdkirk Daniel Kirk

    Thanks for participating in this conversation with me, I continue to learn a lot from our interactions.

    Can you help me with how you understand “continuity”? For someone who espouses limited final salvation, the idea of universalism introduces radical discontinuity because (to take the extreme example) a life lived in rejection of God, without either justification or sanctification, a life outside of Christ, is now put on an entirely different path and drawn into a harmony with God it had rejected previously.

    As I understand the justification-sanctification issue, both are functions or facets of our union with Christ in his death and resurrection. There is an already realized and yet to be completed element to both. But for such completion to occur, a person must still be “in Christ,” and thus part of the reconciled humanity.

    Is your take on all this that all people are “in Christ” by virtue of his being second Adam, representative of humanity and a new creation before God, or something along those lines?

    Thanks again for the great conversation!

    • Richard

      Hi Daniel,
      I think the simiplest way to respond is to say that I think the “coming to Christ” you see in this life is just extended after death. Our stories with God continue post mortem. In the shop of God’s love Death isn’t allowed to hang a “Sorry. We’re Closed” sign in the window.

      So the key idea here, for me, is the defeat of death. That the sting of death has been removed. Thus, death cannot truncate your moral biography with God. We are not “racing against the clock” of death. Most traditional Christian soteriologies are death-centered, where your moral biography with God orbiting the the Moral Stopwatch of Death.

      In short, with the defeat of death our moral biographies with God simply continue. Perhaps toward greater union and perhaps into greater rebellion. But for every step away from God, in this life or the next, there will involve a return journey. Hence the radical continuity. Or, in Jesus’s words, we’ll have to pay the last penny. And with the last penny paid, every tongue will make the salvific confession that Jesus is Lord.

      So the issue, for me, is simply about time. About the defeat of death. Which goes back to the issue of the best ending of the Christian story. Will God’s love win in the end? Or will death? Who gets the last word? In this, I see universalism as just an extention of Christus Victor theology.

      • http://www.facebook.com/geoff5 Geoff Johnson

        Dr. Beck,
        It just struck me that your description of “hell” as the place where “we’ll have to pay the last penny” and then afterward we will all be ready and able to enter heaven is very much like a Catholic doctrine of Purgatory. I am not a Catholic, so my understanding of Purgatory is second-hand and shaped more by Dante than by any pope, but to my mind Purgatory is really what you are describing. I have not yet read any blog posts on Experimental Theology that explicitly make this connection, but I have read that Catholicism influenced your formative years of faith, especially with regard to the Easter season. Would you agree to some similarity in the universalist doctrine of hell and the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory? If so, to what extent would you say they are alike, and to what extent do they differ?

        • Richard

          I actually haven’t studied the doctrine of purgatory in any detail, so I can’t make a detailed comparison. But there is a surface level similarity about God’s salvific work being both ante and post mortem.

          For my own part I try to remain agnostic about the details about how all this will look. My key interests are theological rather that geographical.

          Along those lines, here’s what I believe:

          There is an identity relationship, as with any parent, between God’s love and wrath. One is not satisfied at the expense of the other. They move in concert as God’s seeking the good of his creature. Thus, if God punishes, like a parent punishes a disobedient child, it is an expression of love to save the child from sin.

    • Anonymous

      I definitely feel the pressure of your question about a life lived in rejection of God being suddenly set on a different trajectory after death. Surely if someone has be offered God’s grace in a winsome manner and utterly rejected it then that is definitive in some way of the meaning of their existence. Related to this question though, I’m curious what your stance is on those who are not in such a clear cut situation. What about those who never hear the gospel or never make such a clear rejection? Are there anonymous Christians (Karl Rahner)? Or do we believe they’ve been presented the truth of God’s grace through natural theology and therefore they have rejected Christ? What about infants and the mentally handicapped and so on?

      If our choice in this life is determinative of our eternal participation in salvation what is your conviction about those who appear never to have the opportunity to choose Christ?

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Douglas-Hagler/848645164 Douglas Hagler

        I can’t get away from the fact that we are not free to make choices in the way that a choice-based story would require. What about the person who hears the Gospel in the best possible light, but is mentally ill, and therefore rejects it? And that’s just assuming that a person hears the ‘right’ Gospel from the ‘right’ person, someone they would be inclined to listen to, who does not have an ulterior motive, etc. Should the story for every such person end in hell or annihilation?

        Or how about the person who is a righteous and virtuous member of any other world religion, or is not religious at all? Should their story of selflessness, generosity of spirit, love and respectability end with fire and torture, or destruction?

        How can we possibly claim that human beings, with our inescapably flawed faculties, can make decisions that will have *infinite*, *eternal*, *irrevocable* consequences? To me, that’s an infinite imbalance.

        In my own view, our choices matter in this life, because this life, and the lives of those around us, matter, to us and to God. But will God leave us in a situation where there is never again any hope?

        I certainly hope not.

  • http://twitter.com/jrdkirk Daniel Kirk

    I’d also like to comment that the video responses to this were of … um… shall we say… “varied” quality… :)

    Thinking about Aric’s: I think that both perspectives have the potential to say what we do on this earth and with this earth matters. “New Creation” is a category that both of us have to deal with, and can celebrate, as indicating a level of continuity between this life and the next. I found your assessment that we have to deal with everyone, reconcile with everyone, to be a compelling aspect of your universalist vision of the future. I like that very much.

    • Anonymous

      The thing about Two Friars and a Fool is that it is really the three of us farting around on the internet. Our personalities come through for good or ill.

      I agree entirely that your perspective is capable of investing this life with meaning. Many people have lived meaning-filled lives while believing in annihilation or hell or some other form of non-universal salvation. I do however, think that a non-universal salvation or limited atonement or however one prefers to phrase it runs the danger of allowing us to simply write certain people off. If we are convinced that our destination is different from someone else’s destination than we can just avoid them rather than having to reconcile. To me judgment day means not only a confrontation with the triune God, but also with the rest of humanity and creation. It is an omni-directional reckoning.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Douglas-Hagler/848645164 Douglas Hagler

        We are also still falling into the trap I talked about – we are all assuming that it will be “we” who write “those other people out there” off. There is no reason to assume this absent evidence, and I can think of a number of reasons why God, if intent on roasting the wicked, would roast me. Surely there are evils I do of which I do not repent – if I were to list every evil in which I participated, or was at least complicit, I would spend the rest of my life on the list. I am also far from saved from sin, since I agree that that is what Jesus is more likely about. I still sin. Therefore, do I end up in one of those non-universal endings on the wrong side of God’s wrath?

  • Richard

    Let me add something that, for my part, I think is really important in these discussions about sin, hell, punishment and salvation.

    A key idea in how I approach this issue, one I owe to George MacDonald, is that Jesus is trying to save us from sin. That might seem obviously, but if you ponder it most Christians don’t agree. Most see the work of the Christ as saving us from the consequences of sin, namely from hell. And that’s a key distinction: Are you being saved from your sin or from hell?

    “An angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, ‘Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.’”

    I think confusion is introduced into this conversation when people aren’t clear about this distinction. Am I being saved from my sinfulness or from hell? Am I being saved from my pettiness, my vanity, my violence, my callousness, my addictions, my pride, my selfishness? Or am I merely escaping the fires of hell?

    Lack of clarity on this distinction is why a lot of people don’t get universalism. They think if hell is removed the entire motive of the Christian life has been removed. See Doug’s video response below for a humorous take on this argument. But let’s think about that: Is the motive of the Christian life removed when hell is removed? Cuz I thought perfect love casts out fear.

    But if the Christian life is actually about liberating us from sin, about the Kingdom coming in our own stories with God, then, well, a whole new vista opens up about what Christian salvation might look like. A vista that, for many, will invovle hell but one that won’t end there.

    • J. R. Daniel Kirk

      I agree that this is a crucial facet of salvation, perhaps the most important. Well said.

    • Anonymous

      this reminds me of Ghandi’s quote from his autibiography, when Christians tried to convert him he said something to the effect of, “But I do not wish to be freed from the consequences of sin… I wish to be freed from the very thought of sin.” Me too. :)

  • http://profiles.yahoo.com/u/X2MF7YIYWACZGIJWJVRIZG2F4I Patricia

    I also came to have my theology challenged by George MacDonald. In addition to the difference between being saved from sin or hell, MacDonald also challenged the way conventional theology frames around Paul, rather than Christ. That being saved – belief in Christ – means mental acquiescence to doctrinal and historical facts about Christ without ever having to take seriously the things Jesus Himself said, taught, and lived. MacDonald brought together, for me anyway, the book of James, over which there has been much debate in conventional circles, and “by grace are you saved through faith, not of yourselves …” MacDonald demonstrated that to believe is to live out that belief, not merely declare it with words and assent; hence the admonition, “This people honors Me with their lips but their hearts are far from me.” MacDonald refuses to whitewash away the stories about the uttermost farthing that must be paid, and the Consuming Fire passages that would strike fear, as well they should, are borne out of love that would save the beloved from his or her own unloveliness.

  • Anonymous

    Thanks for the videos guys! Lia is GORGEOUS!!! Doug is funny!

    Aric has the point I think – Non-universalism seems to be used as an excuse to exclude the people you don’t like. Now that doesn’t make it right or wrong – but it certainly bears relation to the question ‘What is the BEST ending.’

  • Robert

    If we have free will, it’s because God intended us to have it. Or to put it a different way, he predestined it. I do think we go overboard on free will, to the point where people end up with a list of things God allegedly ‘can’t’ do. I don’t think that’s an expression you can use of an omnipotent being! I don’t think the truth is either/or, but both/and.

  • Clint Hagen

    The big free will question for me is this: can anyone truly love if s/he is not truly free to choose? And specifically, if we are not free to choose to love or hate or be indifferent toward God, can we truly love God?

    • Anonymous

      I think it’s pretty clear that left to ourselves we ALL pretty much suck. I mean is that any kind of mystery? :)

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Douglas-Hagler/848645164 Douglas Hagler

      In my own view, free will is on a sort of sliding scale, with “totally free” at one end and “not at all free” on the other end. We never get all the way over to the “totally free” side – there is always something circumscribing our choices. We are sometimes on the “not at all free” side, but for the most part we are somewhere between the two. So we can certainly love, but our love exists somewhere on this sliding scale. For me, that doesn’t make love less meaningful; what it does is help me understand why love is such a struggle.

  • Clint Hagen

    The big free will question for me is this: can anyone truly love if s/he is not truly free to choose? And specifically, if we are not free to choose to love or hate or be indifferent toward God, can we truly love God?

  • Anonymous

    I just want to commend you both over and over, as well as all who were involved in creating this “space” for discussion. There’s been so much ugliness, and as an evaneglical universalist (I suppose that’s the correct term these days?) in a reformed presbyterian church that I love… well, I have shed many tears over the past few months. There is far too much ugliness. It need not be so. Thank you for renewing my hope that we can live together with acceptance and mutual respect.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Douglas-Hagler/848645164 Douglas Hagler

      I’m thankful to see our discussion here having that effect. One big hope for this “place” was that it would be host to conversations that have been painful but just don’t need to be.

  • antandcharmi-spare

    I guess I don’t belong here, because all this is really, really, really complicated to me. Why can’t God just create beings with a will, and himself choose to help the ones who want to be like him, and allow the ones who prefer to be godless, to get what they wish for? I know the idea of suffering in hell is awful, but maybe that’s the only way to get children of God: give people the ability to choose. Then He has to live by that double-edged choice. As for those whose cognitive ability is impaired, surely that is taken into account on Judgement Day? Bye, and sincere thanks anyway for an interesting read so far as I could take it in.

    • AJ Turner

      I certainly don’t mean to speak for everyone Dr. Beck or everyone else, but I’ll give a crack at responding to your thoughts.

      When you asked the question starting with, “Why can’t God…?” I think that question is the same idea that Rob Bell is getting at in Love Wins – the idea that people do get what they wish for and create their own hell. Of course, that’s not the end of his book, but that’s part of it.

      The problem that a lot of people are running into with the idea of “free will” is that, if we’re honest, it’s not the majority of people in the world who are “privileged” enough to have grown up in a culture where Jesus is much more than a legend or myth. Perhaps we do have a free will that can choose, but what about those who were never even given the option? What about those who literally never heard his name, let alone live within a culture where He is presented as a reality and way of life that is more than simply a story or a good teacher? The list of conditions and factors going into someone’s “free choice” are so incalculably large that it has definitely made people re-think who “deserves” hell and even what it really is anyways, especially since the Bible says that we all do. And then of course there are verses in the Bible that talk about Christ reconciling all things unto himself, how the sin and death have been defeated, and how one day every knee shall bow and tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

      The question, then, is not just *if* God has created persons with a free will, but if in fact he did, what constitutes a free choice? Is a person freely choosing Christ, the real Jesus, when all of their cultural conditioning and life experiences have associated Christ with horrible people and wars? Furthermore, we can all agree that we think God would take into account those who are impaired in some way (though technically that’s not mentioned in the Bible per se), but what can we say about all of the other extenuating circumstances around the things a person cannot choose – i.e. when/where someone is born, certain life experiences, etc ? When theologians look at the nature of what they think goes into why someone would go to heaven or hell, it’s hard to be so closed off as to say that God, in his Infinite Wisdom, would create people in a culture that have never even heard Christ’s name, then banish them to hell for that. What “choice” did he give them in that?

      I hope that helps. Let me know if I just made things more complicated.

      • antandcharmi-spare

        Hi AJ,
        I don’t know if you will still get this, I am so late in reading your reply! I do hope you will, because I loved your reply. It was very clear, and helpful. I see now where the dfficulty lies. I should have before! “People having no chance.” I would only add that I have always expected that Judgement Day will be about your *heart*, and your knowledge, and the extenuating circumstances, as much as your actual choice and action, and not necessarily how successful you were.
        I know I deviate from the mainstream in this. Perhaps I ought to explain how I see it for now. I am not suggesting Jesus is not the only way to get your wrongs covered. However, I do wonder if people will be given an opportunity to accept him after death. As far as I know, he went and preached to the dead. Also, thousands of years before he arrived, people had a forgiven relationship with God. So, without Christ, their choices were still able to allow them to accept ‘Christ’ somehow(?) before they knew of him. It just seems *to me*, why have a judgement day, unless we are going to be assessed on what we were *trying* to do? Otherwise, it will simply be a Jesus/non-Jesus day.
        So I suspect that somehow, many people will be able to receive Christ in ways we do not understand. What benefit then in spreading the gospel? This: that many, many, many whose hearts *are* too bad to escape otherwise, can still be saved. I’m no theologian, and this discussion board is too hard for me, so I will not be back (except to check if you replied again), but I did love hearing all your views, and am especially grateful to you for your response. It took a lot of the pain out of my lack of understanding! :-)
        God bless you,
        Anthony